googlebase

this was supposed to be about the various shipping search engines but 99% of the time was just on google...eventhough 95% of the people here use it already...if you use google already....dont waste your time on this transcript...

[2008.12.04 18:59:56] Welcome to the CafePress Chat Room
[2008.12.04 18:59:56] Shopaholic Chick has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 18:59:56] All users in this room have been allowed to talk
[2008.12.04 18:59:56] matisse has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 18:59:58] AngelaCP: hi everyone!
[2008.12.04 18:59:58] RowdyJRT has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:00:00] mr servopuff has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:00:02] kdbrown has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:00:03] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:00:03] twopurringcats has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:00:06] BrittaCP: we'll be ready in a second
[2008.12.04 19:00:07] DDKnight has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:00:13] Shopaholic Chick: hi all
[2008.12.04 19:00:16] AngelaCP: hi! :)
[2008.12.04 19:00:16] buffaloworks: Hey Britta and Angela
[2008.12.04 19:00:20] AngelaCP: hi jean!
[2008.12.04 19:00:24] buffaloworks: and all
[2008.12.04 19:00:29] matisse: twas the night before Christmas.......
[2008.12.04 19:00:36] twopurringcats: Hi :)
[2008.12.04 19:00:49] DafnaCP: Hi everyone
[2008.12.04 19:00:57] buffaloworks: Angela, replacement check arrived, original is still awol
[2008.12.04 19:00:59] kdbrown: hey this is my first chat!
[2008.12.04 19:01:00] DDKnight has left the room (logged out)
[2008.12.04 19:01:01] AngelaCP: yay!
[2008.12.04 19:01:10] AngelaCP: welcome kdbrown!
[2008.12.04 19:01:13] DDknight has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:01:18] NiftyGaloot: All I want for Christmas is... Lefse!
[2008.12.04 19:01:22] AngelaCP: what's a lefse?
[2008.12.04 19:01:55] NiftyGaloot: Norwegian potato pancake... very thin
[2008.12.04 19:01:58] buffaloworks: yum
[2008.12.04 19:02:01] buffaloworks: oooh, nifty, I havent had that for years!
[2008.12.04 19:02:06] AngelaCP: oh, sounds good
[2008.12.04 19:02:11] RowdyJRT: Hi All :)
[2008.12.04 19:02:22] buffaloworks: like potato tortillas
[2008.12.04 19:02:31] bacon has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:02:34] DafnaCP: So let's get started. Welcome all.
[2008.12.04 19:02:41] NiftyGaloot: Top lefse with butter and brown sugar, roll up!
[2008.12.04 19:02:47] Cyndi has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:02:51] DafnaCP: I just want to go over "the rules"....
[2008.12.04 19:02:56] TexasFiddler has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:03:54] DafnaCP: This is a moderated chat which means that comments come in to a queue and we push them out as fast as we possibly can.
[2008.12.04 19:04:01] MaxMuhlin has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:04:20] DafnaCP: Due to the limited time, not all comments get out.
[2008.12.04 19:04:49] DafnaCP: Also, please be respectful of one another. Anything else I forgot?
[2008.12.04 19:05:31] matisse: I am googling "the rules"
[2008.12.04 19:05:41] DafnaCP: Guess I covered it all then
[2008.12.04 19:05:54] Ga has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:06:01] Cyndi: LOL @matisse
[2008.12.04 19:06:51] DafnaCP: Today's chat is on Shopping Engines. With us to talk about that is Jeremy who manages the online marketing team here at CafePress
[2008.12.04 19:06:57] JeremyCP: hi everyone
[2008.12.04 19:07:10] matisse: Heh Jeremy!
[2008.12.04 19:07:14] CupcakeGirl has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:07:47] JeremyCP: I'm going to jump right in with a quick intro then ping you all with a couple questions
[2008.12.04 19:08:03] JeremyCP: Comparison shopping engines allow consumers any easy way to view and compare prices of categorized products offered by hundreds of retailers around the world.
[2008.12.04 19:08:16] JeremyCP: For retailers, they provide a great way to showcase products to consumers who are actively shopping.
[2008.12.04 19:08:36] JeremyCP: Here are some of the most popular shopping engine sites out there based on their monthly visitor volume:
[2008.12.04 19:08:55] JeremyCP: Shopzilla.com – 40 million
Shopping.com – 20 million
Google Base – 20 million
NexTag.com – 8 million
PriceGrabber.com – 5 million
Shop.com – 4 million
PriceRunner.com – 3 million
[2008.12.04 19:09:12] JeremyCP: Anyone use these to shop?
[2008.12.04 19:09:23] DafnaCP: I do!
[2008.12.04 19:09:26] kdbrown: nope
[2008.12.04 19:09:38] DDknight: i have
[2008.12.04 19:09:41] CupcakeGirl: I've used Shopzilla
[2008.12.04 19:09:43] Pandion: I get emails from PriceGrabber.
[2008.12.04 19:09:56] Cyndi: Mostly google
[2008.12.04 19:10:05] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:10:15] Shopaholic Chick: i have used shopzilla....i tried to add my stuff to shopzilla but they want $ to be added lol
[2008.12.04 19:10:25] JeremyCP: true
[2008.12.04 19:10:41] JeremyCP: Most shopping engines charge a fee for every “click” (or visitor) they drive to a retailer’s website. But, some shopping engines allow you to list products for free – the biggest freebie is Google Base, aka Google Products Search (formerly Froogle)
[2008.12.04 19:11:32] JeremyCP: Is anyone currently uploading their products to Google Base?
[2008.12.04 19:11:36] matisse: Google Products is my friend!
[2008.12.04 19:11:42] buffaloworks: yes!!
[2008.12.04 19:11:44] servopuff: Yes!
[2008.12.04 19:11:53] twopurringcats: I have
[2008.12.04 19:12:01] NiftyGaloot: Trying to... uploaded on the 27th still processing
[2008.12.04 19:12:06] Cyndi: I did it for the first time yesterday!
[2008.12.04 19:12:27] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:12:35] matisse: Good for you Cyndi!
[2008.12.04 19:12:55] kiwi: Nifty, if it doesn't process in 24 hours, upload it again.
[2008.12.04 19:13:05] Dooni Designs: google base now keeps activating my cp products because some dont have descriptions and they won't accept a generic one that doesnt match what is on the site.
[2008.12.04 19:13:09] Cyndi: Heh. Teesed and Bambi helped me. I am so lame sometimes...
[2008.12.04 19:13:14] JeremyCP: Great! Because Google is the cheapest (FREE!) and easiest comparison shopping engine to advertise in, I wanted to chat about how to get your products listed in Google Base (for newbies), and answer any questions others might have about their experiences with Google.
[2008.12.04 19:14:16] JeremyCP: For you Pros, I'll ask you to bear with us...
[2008.12.04 19:14:37] JeremyCP: Google makes it (relatively) easy to get started.
[2008.12.04 19:14:56] JeremyCP: You'll want to bookmark this page: http://www.google.com/base/help/sellongoogle.html
[2008.12.04 19:15:02] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:15:04] JeremyCP: That's your starting point.
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[2008.12.04 19:15:32] JeremyCP: From that page, you’ll click the “Start a Datafeed” button. You’ll need a Google Account (also free). Google will ask you to sign in using your Google account. If you don’t have one, you can create one on the fly.
[2008.12.04 19:15:49] hazeleyes7: Will you be covering any of the other shopping engines or just Google?
[2008.12.04 19:16:23] JeremyCP: the details on Google, but I can answer questions on the others after
[2008.12.04 19:16:28] twopurringcats has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:16:44] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:16:54] JeremyCP: Back to Google for now...
The first time in the system, you’ll be dropped on a page which asks you to specify your feed file. We’ll talk more about how to create a feed file later, but for now, you should enter/select the following options on this page:
[2008.12.04 19:17:33] JeremyCP: [Dafna will send a screen shot in a second]
[2008.12.04 19:17:44] DafnaCP sent a picture:
[2008.12.04 19:18:19] DafnaCP: If you can't see the image, just click on it and it'll pop up bigger
[2008.12.04 19:18:25] JeremyCP: on that first page, there are some important settings you'll need to make
[2008.12.04 19:18:43] JeremyCP: Country: United States
Item Type: Products
Type of Feed: GoogleBase
Data feed filename: anything_you_want.txt
[2008.12.04 19:18:52] dreamup has left the room (logged out)
[2008.12.04 19:19:13] dreamup has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:19:36] JeremyCP: for the filename, you can just makeup a filename that you'll use after you create your feed
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[2008.12.04 19:20:15] JeremyCP: Now that your feed settings are correct, you’ll need to create a feed file, or flat file – that’s a single file which contains relevant info on all the products you want to submit to Google.
[2008.12.04 19:21:08] Kelly C has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:21:53] JeremyCP: Here’s a link to the guidelines on how to create and format your feed file:
http://base.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en_US&answer=73932

On that page, you’ll follow the instructions for creating a tab-delimited text file to use as your feed file. Here’s a direct link to those instructions: http://base.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=58083&hl=en
[2008.12.04 19:22:19] JeremyCP: so, i know a lot of you probably have specific questions about the feed files and where to get your data
[2008.12.04 19:22:26] JeremyCP: we can pause to cover those now
[2008.12.04 19:23:09] hazeleyes7: What about using Instant Cafe to create your feed?
[2008.12.04 19:23:13] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:23:27] DafnaCP: You can use it, it's a 3rd party tool. I've heard other shopkeepers have had success with it.
[2008.12.04 19:23:33] Shopaholic Chick: there are several programs to make feeds....and 2 are free....www.squidoo.com/cpinstantcafe explains step by step how to use instant cafe & www.squidoo.com/ilovecafetoolbox emplains how to use the other
[2008.12.04 19:23:37] JeremyCP: There's also CafeGrabber.com
[2008.12.04 19:23:58] JeremyCP: or you can use the API directly with your own queries
[2008.12.04 19:24:06] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:24:19] JeremyCP: not typically for the beginner...
[2008.12.04 19:24:28] mr servopuff has left the room (logged out)
[2008.12.04 19:24:54] servopuff: I noticed that CafePress also submits to Google Base. Sometimes I see products I have hidden in my shop listed Google Base, submitted by CP. Do you list hidden products on purpose?
[2008.12.04 19:25:08] mr servopuff has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:25:19] DafnaCP: Nope, not on purpose. If you've opted out of the MP then the products aren't supposed to be in the feeds.
[2008.12.04 19:25:34] DafnaCP: which also means that products in hidden sections should not show up
[2008.12.04 19:25:49] JeremyCP: We also generate feeds once every 30 days, so if anything about your products has changed in that time, it won't get picked up until we refresh
[2008.12.04 19:26:02] Shopaholic Chick: is cafegrabber free??? last i heard there was a charge for that one
[2008.12.04 19:26:12] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:26:17] AngelaCP: it's not free...there is a charge
[2008.12.04 19:26:25] MaxMuhlin: i would think, since people went to all the trouble to create these Feed Generators, one may as well take full advantage of the wonderful FREE benefit there ! I certainly appreciate having Instant Cafe to generate my feeds for 16 shops !!!!!
[2008.12.04 19:26:26] JeremyCP: CafeGrabber is software you'll need to purchase
[2008.12.04 19:26:38] JeremyCP: exactly
[2008.12.04 19:27:03] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:27:14] Shopaholic Chick: if you show a sub section inside a hidden section...the showing subsection is still in the marketplace
[2008.12.04 19:27:24] kdbrown: is there a limit to the # of characters for descriptions?
[2008.12.04 19:27:31] Message sent to moderator(s)
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[2008.12.04 19:27:55] JeremyCP: the nice thing about understanding how Google works, is that you can begin to optimize the feeds that services like InstantCafe spit out
[2008.12.04 19:28:05] JeremyCP: 10,000 characters on the Description field
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[2008.12.04 19:28:54] JeremyCP: if you visit this link http://base.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en_US&answer=73932 and click on the different fields, they have descriptions and character limits listed
[2008.12.04 19:29:13] kdbrown: that should do it
[2008.12.04 19:29:19] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:29:23] Shopaholic Chick: kd the description MUST MATCH your cafepress product description exactly or google will reject it
[2008.12.04 19:29:52] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:30:24] JeremyCP: Description must match, but but you can append to beginning or end of Titles
[2008.12.04 19:30:33] JeremyCP: also, description is NOT required
[2008.12.04 19:30:43] JeremyCP: These are the required fields
[2008.12.04 19:30:52] JeremyCP: ID – CP product number
Title – Name of product
Description – Description of product
Link – URL for product in your shop
Price – Retail price in $USD
[2008.12.04 19:31:02] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:31:22] JeremyCP: I'm sorry -- Description IS required
[2008.12.04 19:31:39] servopuff: Where does it say that Shopa? We change ours. Do you mean the product description?
[2008.12.04 19:32:05] JeremyCP: and must match text that exists on the PDP you send traffic to
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[2008.12.04 19:32:21] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:32:41] JeremyCP: For example, if your description is "Men's Organic T-shirt"
[2008.12.04 19:33:05] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:33:07] JeremyCP: and the "generic" CP description on the site is:
Lightweight for summer comfort or winter layering, our Men's Organic T-shirt is one of our most popular fine tees. It's what to wear when you care about having 100% organically-grown cotton next to your skin. The next best thing to nothing, naturally.
[2008.12.04 19:33:33] JeremyCP: there description matches enough of the text on the page to qualify in Google
[2008.12.04 19:33:51] JeremyCP: these are the rules we abide by when we submit for MP
[2008.12.04 19:34:02] Dooni Designs: google has been deactivating ALL of my items for descriptions that don't match
[2008.12.04 19:34:04] Shopaholic Chick: servo - it does not say it - until you load it and it rejects the lines saying description does not match the one on the site
[2008.12.04 19:34:52] Shopaholic Chick: jeremy it will not accpet that as a description anymore if that is the name also....it says the name and description MUST me different
[2008.12.04 19:34:59] bacon has left the room (logged out)
[2008.12.04 19:35:19] JeremyCP: that's right, you'll need to make sure your Title and Description are not identical
[2008.12.04 19:35:45] JeremyCP: but basically, Google will scan the landing page to make sure it's relevant
[2008.12.04 19:35:49] twopurringcats: Do we just copy and paste what is on our store description when submitting to Google?
[2008.12.04 19:35:55] Luppy has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:36:17] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:36:22] JeremyCP: That's probably the best option, and typically what InstantCafe or CafeGrabber will do
[2008.12.04 19:36:44] JeremyCP: sometimes we append to beginning or end of those fields to help boost click-thru
[2008.12.04 19:36:56] JeremyCP: we've had no troubles with Google declining those listings
[2008.12.04 19:37:09] Shopaholic Chick: two use the feed genertor and you dont have to do anything but type your shopname into their box and then upload the file they make for you
[2008.12.04 19:37:17] Dooni Designs: I got a 100% success and then they emailed me 3 days later and made everything inactive. Just a warning to check your emails if yours differ and you THINK you have active items
[2008.12.04 19:37:58] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:38:00] JeremyCP: absolutely, Shopaholic Chick -- I only suggest you modify if you'd like to test and tune your feed -- this is how we get more traffic from the same feed each month
[2008.12.04 19:38:28] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:39:18] JeremyCP: More questions on Google, or should we cover some of the other engines?
[2008.12.04 19:39:23] dreamup: we want more traffic too =) where do you add descriptions on google?
[2008.12.04 19:39:40] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:40:15] JeremyCP: by default, if you have supplied CP with unique descriptions and you use a service like InstantCafe, etc -- they will be pulled into your feed file automatically
[2008.12.04 19:40:54] MP: Is there a way to handle the flat rate economy shipping prices with single item (card, button etc.) shipping prices with the new Google requirements?
[2008.12.04 19:41:05] JeremyCP: MP: short answer is no
[2008.12.04 19:41:22] MP: Bummer
[2008.12.04 19:41:42] JeremyCP: we've tweaked our settings in Google to match shipping as closely as possible, but the bottom line is they don't REQUIRE you to upload or select shipping info
[2008.12.04 19:42:06] JeremyCP: basically, you just want to offer the user a close approximation of shipping costs
[2008.12.04 19:42:17] NiftyGaloot: Are we better off uploading only our best selling designs... or should we upload all designs?
[2008.12.04 19:42:31] JeremyCP: NiftyGaloot: we upload as much as we can
[2008.12.04 19:42:53] JeremyCP: basic Google accts are limited to 100K products, i think -- so that should cover most folks
[2008.12.04 19:42:59] JeremyCP: submit it all!
[2008.12.04 19:43:06] JeremyCP: 2 notes
[2008.12.04 19:43:44] JeremyCP: on the Settings page for your account, make sure to use your SHOP URL, not just "CafePress.com" in the optional field here
[2008.12.04 19:43:52] JeremyCP: otherwise, you'll get declined
[2008.12.04 19:44:30] JeremyCP: and for the Brand field in your feed, I'd recommend using your Shop name (the field is optional)
[2008.12.04 19:44:30] dreamup has left the room (logged out)
[2008.12.04 19:44:39] twopurringcats: I just made a feed and uploaded an image it just says "processing", now what do I do?
[2008.12.04 19:44:47] JeremyCP: now you wait, twopurringcats
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[2008.12.04 19:44:57] Shopaholic Chick: two you wait 24 hours
[2008.12.04 19:44:58] JeremyCP: Google will take some time to review
[2008.12.04 19:45:11] dreamup has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:45:14] JeremyCP: then approve the items they see as "relevant"
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[2008.12.04 19:45:52] JeremyCP: Also note: any products with "adult" language in titles/descriptions could cause errors with Google
[2008.12.04 19:46:02] JeremyCP: they have a pretty strict content filter
[2008.12.04 19:46:08] DafnaCP: I believe that includes even the word "adult"
[2008.12.04 19:46:39] NiftyGaloot: Very slow on dial-up with 12 meg file... hours...
[2008.12.04 19:46:49] JeremyCP: correct Dafna
[2008.12.04 19:47:12] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:47:16] JeremyCP: NiftyGaloot: You can also break up your feed into smaller files -- ex: 2x 6 meg, or 4x 3meg
[2008.12.04 19:47:24] JeremyCP: Google seems to do better with smaller files
[2008.12.04 19:47:36] JeremyCP: even on dial-up:)
[2008.12.04 19:47:45] Cyndi: Even if you mark it as "may not be suitable for children" when you upload?
[2008.12.04 19:47:50] Shopaholic Chick: yeah i have to appeal every month for my "stop child pornography" designs to be removed from the banned queue LOL
[2008.12.04 19:47:59] servopuff: Yes, tits are not allowed. Tits are birds!
[2008.12.04 19:48:17] JeremyCP: yeah, they'll make exceptions, but you need to request them AFTER they block your product
[2008.12.04 19:48:21] NiftyGaloot: Thanks, will try breaking file into smaller chunks.
[2008.12.04 19:48:29] DafnaCP: So we have only a little bit of time left
[2008.12.04 19:48:32] art has entered the room "CafePress Chat Room"
[2008.12.04 19:48:33] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:48:38] DafnaCP: I'd like to move on to some of the other shopping engines
[2008.12.04 19:49:23] lizartdesign: I'd be interested in learning about the other engines.
[2008.12.04 19:49:26] buffaloworks: Does anyone use any of the others?
[2008.12.04 19:49:40] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:49:49] matisse: no
[2008.12.04 19:49:51] Shopaholic Chick: you can now sbmit to shopzilla and shopping.com thru google.....but you hae to sign up and pay for them first
[2008.12.04 19:49:53] MP: Are any of the others no cost?
[2008.12.04 19:50:11] JeremyCP: You can also submit to TheFind.com for free
[2008.12.04 19:50:23] JeremyCP: but most others charge on a cost-per-click basis
[2008.12.04 19:50:26] servopuff: We use MSN/Live Product Search
[2008.12.04 19:50:29] buffaloworks: Has anyone found the cost worth it?
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[2008.12.04 19:50:49] buffaloworks: I've never had luck with adwords.
[2008.12.04 19:50:51] JeremyCP: We manage the paid ones very closely, because ROI tends to be tight there
[2008.12.04 19:50:55] mr servopuff: We tried Yahoo but that was a waste of money (no sales for $50)
[2008.12.04 19:51:08] JeremyCP: I'd also recommend MSN live search, and even CashBack
[2008.12.04 19:51:21] Message sent to moderator(s)
[2008.12.04 19:51:27] JeremyCP: if you're willing to share a percentage of your confirmed sales, it could work for you
[2008.12.04 19:51:35] Shopaholic Chick: i JUST got my adwords to convert for the first time to a profit...and it is on a VERY niche set of designs
[2008.12.04 19:52:08] servopuff: WTG Shopa
[2008.12.04 19:52:11] JeremyCP: adwords is a bit different -- that's straight Search Engine Marketing, not necessarily Shoppng Engines -- but they can work well for you
[2008.12.04 19:52:16] mr servopuff has left the room (logged out)
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[2008.12.04 19:53:07] JeremyCP: the lowest cost per click we've seen on the big shopping engines is NexTag and PriceGrabber -- almost half what we see in Shopping and Shopzilla
[2008.12.04 19:53:16] servopuff: Do you have stats on Yahoo or MSN Live Search?
[2008.12.04 19:53:33] JeremyCP: For paid search, or shopping engines?
[2008.12.04 19:53:55] MP: Do you only share a percentage of true sales without other fees for MSN Live and CashBack?
[2008.12.04 19:54:11] JeremyCP: MP: Sales minus tax/shipping
[2008.12.04 19:54:20] servopuff: Monthly visitor volume, eg 40 million for Shopzilla
[2008.12.04 19:54:46] JeremyCP: not off the top of my head, but I can follow-up
[2008.12.04 19:54:53] JeremyCP: you may want to check Quantcast
[2008.12.04 19:54:55] JeremyCP: .com
[2008.12.04 19:55:04] Luppy has left the room (logged out)
[2008.12.04 19:55:31] DafnaCP: Time is almost up. Any more last imnute questions about anything we covered?
[2008.12.04 19:55:39] DafnaCP: minute*
[2008.12.04 19:56:23] MP: Any chance CP could shorten some of the titles like "Women's Plus Size V-Neck Dark Long Sleeve. . . Not much room left for a descriptive title
[2008.12.04 19:56:48] JeremyCP: MP -- I've put in a request to Merch/Marketing along those same lines -- we'll see what happens ;)
[2008.12.04 19:57:10] matisse: How often does CP upload product feeds to google base? The reason I ask is that it is not often enough to keep up with any price changes.
[2008.12.04 19:57:18] JeremyCP: Every 30 days
[2008.12.04 19:57:54] JeremyCP: we'd do it more often, but we're limited to 10 million, and we have to analyze all 200+ million to figure out which once would be best to submit
[2008.12.04 19:57:58] JeremyCP: takes time
[2008.12.04 19:58:18] JeremyCP: we're trying to shorten the update to 2 weeks this year -- fingers crossed